Bush, Blair banned entry to Church of Nativity
Bush, Blair banned entry to Church of Nativity IANS DUBAI: The Church of Nativity in Bethlehem, believed to be the birthplace of Jesus Christ, has barred US President George Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair from ever entering the shrine.
This topic was started by kathaksung,
Bush, Blair banned entry to Church of Nativity
IANS [ TUESDAY, APRIL 01, 2003 07:46:39 PM ]
DUBAI: The Church of Nativity in Bethlehem, believed to be the birthplace of Jesus Christ, has barred US President George Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair from ever entering the shrine.
Christianity's holiest shrine branded the two "war criminals", Qatar News Agency reported.
The agency, in a report from Bethlehem monitored here, said US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw had also been denied the privilege of visiting the sacred place.
The move was in protest against "the aggressive war these leaders have waged against Iraq", the agency quoted the chief priest of the church, Father Panaritus, as saying at a protest demonstration against the war organised by orthodox Christians outside the church Monday.
"They are war criminals and murderers of children. Therefore, the Church of Nativity decided to ban them access into the holy shrine forever," the priest said.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll...w?msid=42083493
IANS [ TUESDAY, APRIL 01, 2003 07:46:39 PM ]
DUBAI: The Church of Nativity in Bethlehem, believed to be the birthplace of Jesus Christ, has barred US President George Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair from ever entering the shrine.
Christianity's holiest shrine branded the two "war criminals", Qatar News Agency reported.
The agency, in a report from Bethlehem monitored here, said US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw had also been denied the privilege of visiting the sacred place.
The move was in protest against "the aggressive war these leaders have waged against Iraq", the agency quoted the chief priest of the church, Father Panaritus, as saying at a protest demonstration against the war organised by orthodox Christians outside the church Monday.
"They are war criminals and murderers of children. Therefore, the Church of Nativity decided to ban them access into the holy shrine forever," the priest said.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll...w?msid=42083493
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Hmmm.. I don't remember Saddam being banned after his troops invaded Kuwait or after he slaughtered many of his own people. This must be one of those very special lists. Backwards thinking.
I'm glad our police don't think like that or criminals would never be sought after much less apprehended. Parents that beat and starve their children and duct tape them to their beds would never be brought to justice.
I'm sad for everyone that died during the war, both sides. I'm sadder for the children and women. However, people were dying from the regime's whims faster than the coalition could have caused had they been there fighting for years.
I don't know the ultimate outcome but hope that it is at least better than it was before. If Iraq can't recover and have a government that all of its people are represented and all people prosper, with all its available wealth, no country can. I wish the Iraqi people the very best.
I'm glad our police don't think like that or criminals would never be sought after much less apprehended. Parents that beat and starve their children and duct tape them to their beds would never be brought to justice.
I'm sad for everyone that died during the war, both sides. I'm sadder for the children and women. However, people were dying from the regime's whims faster than the coalition could have caused had they been there fighting for years.
I don't know the ultimate outcome but hope that it is at least better than it was before. If Iraq can't recover and have a government that all of its people are represented and all people prosper, with all its available wealth, no country can. I wish the Iraqi people the very best.
Lame people.
If only everyone eventually realised were on the same planet for the same reason
If only everyone eventually realised were on the same planet for the same reason
I believe this got a lot of sense to call them war criminals , Bush and Blair , indeed i wouldn't call them like that but the history is often a dramatic fallback .
What the cohalition did in this war is "almost" the same story back in 1979 , where the americans wiped the Shah of Iran , after we know what happened in Iran , Ayatolah Khomeni took the place of the Shah of Iran and installed the islamist governement in Iran that is still there and invented the concept of mass islamism and mass terrorism , i definitely consider Khomeni as a devil .
You know why USA banned the Shah of Iran , because he was a dictator "sigh" . The fact is that it was the only strong governement in this region which was anti religious extremism , he had the power to rule the middle east and to avoid the fanatics to take place .
What we have now ? Fanatics , in exil in Iran , are back in Irak coz Saddam has gone and now it's time for them , and they have the plain power to do , with the chiits and some sunits , to install a islamist "democracy" (re-sigh) in Irak .
The cohalition has done a bad job , if you think that Irak is free now and ready for democracy , stop dreaming , every ayatolahs were waiting for this day for a long time and that's the fanatics of Irak who are really free now to do their bad job , and they even are not thankfull to the americans WTF .
The women in Irak are very gracefull indeed to the cohalition , because now they all will have to wear the tchadri , suffer from bloody treatments like in Iran . The people in general , like in Iran , maybe won't have anymore access to music , and everything forbidden by islamists from Iran . Irak is ready to fallback to middle-age .
Anybody should take history as an example , for the future and think twice or more before installing the chaos anywhere on earth .
What the cohalition did in this war is "almost" the same story back in 1979 , where the americans wiped the Shah of Iran , after we know what happened in Iran , Ayatolah Khomeni took the place of the Shah of Iran and installed the islamist governement in Iran that is still there and invented the concept of mass islamism and mass terrorism , i definitely consider Khomeni as a devil .
You know why USA banned the Shah of Iran , because he was a dictator "sigh" . The fact is that it was the only strong governement in this region which was anti religious extremism , he had the power to rule the middle east and to avoid the fanatics to take place .
What we have now ? Fanatics , in exil in Iran , are back in Irak coz Saddam has gone and now it's time for them , and they have the plain power to do , with the chiits and some sunits , to install a islamist "democracy" (re-sigh) in Irak .
The cohalition has done a bad job , if you think that Irak is free now and ready for democracy , stop dreaming , every ayatolahs were waiting for this day for a long time and that's the fanatics of Irak who are really free now to do their bad job , and they even are not thankfull to the americans WTF .
The women in Irak are very gracefull indeed to the cohalition , because now they all will have to wear the tchadri , suffer from bloody treatments like in Iran . The people in general , like in Iran , maybe won't have anymore access to music , and everything forbidden by islamists from Iran . Irak is ready to fallback to middle-age .
Anybody should take history as an example , for the future and think twice or more before installing the chaos anywhere on earth .
I think it should be U.S. policy to erradicate any dictator that kills his own people. We've let the tyrannical children of this world play long enough. This should be a world of tolerance - not tolarance of dictators and cruel regimes but tolerable of all people that act in a civilized manner, praying to whichever version of God they believe in. The people that are the most tolerant are tolerant of the bad people and have it out for the good. The thinking is backwards and worthy of a sheep. Those that want to whine about America should go be oppressed for a decade or so then come back and offer their opinions. It's easy to be appeasers when you hold no personal stake or risk.
As for America not being thanked, I really don't care. You don't do it for the thanks. I've heard it both ways. Some thank us. Some do not. Such is life. We've had our demostrations and protests here as well. A country full of people is bound to have differing opinions. Of course, those dissenters were in the minority by a large margin.
I noticed someone here from the great country of France. France didn't mind being liberated by America in their time of need. Too bad, France has a short memory. France is lucky that Hitler didn't just want to take Europe and stop there. Germany was a most formidable force and if they consolidated their power into holding Europe, things may have been different.
I pity those oppressed by ruthless dictators. I am surprised that people that talk the humanitarian game don't believe in helping these people. Living like that is nearly like living as a slave. You have to tote the party line or risk being killed or tortured. You are forced to go fight against the Americans or else your family is killed. How can anyone possibly defend a regime that does this to people? We are all on the planet for the same reason, right? If the word is going to be "all" then "some" of us should not be living like this. "All" of us should be doing everything humanly possible to prevent this and defend it from ever happening again.
As for America not being thanked, I really don't care. You don't do it for the thanks. I've heard it both ways. Some thank us. Some do not. Such is life. We've had our demostrations and protests here as well. A country full of people is bound to have differing opinions. Of course, those dissenters were in the minority by a large margin.
I noticed someone here from the great country of France. France didn't mind being liberated by America in their time of need. Too bad, France has a short memory. France is lucky that Hitler didn't just want to take Europe and stop there. Germany was a most formidable force and if they consolidated their power into holding Europe, things may have been different.
I pity those oppressed by ruthless dictators. I am surprised that people that talk the humanitarian game don't believe in helping these people. Living like that is nearly like living as a slave. You have to tote the party line or risk being killed or tortured. You are forced to go fight against the Americans or else your family is killed. How can anyone possibly defend a regime that does this to people? We are all on the planet for the same reason, right? If the word is going to be "all" then "some" of us should not be living like this. "All" of us should be doing everything humanly possible to prevent this and defend it from ever happening again.
Ohh...yeah ...thats good..let's take lessons of death and destruction from the #1 killer of all time.....RELIGION...
Religion isn't a bad thing the problem is with those who don't understand its message , a message of love , peace and hope . Those who use religion as a purpose of death and disorder are nothing else other than "devil's speech " , we had these guys mainly in middle age in Europe and now in our times with islamists .
I noticed someone here from the great country of France. France didn't mind being liberated by America in their time of need. Too bad, France has a short memory. France is lucky that Hitler didn't just want to take Europe and stop there. Germany was a most formidable force and if they consolidated their power into holding Europe, things may have been different.
Nobody in France have forgotten what the americans did in 1944 , but americans never speak about what the french armies of Rochambeau , Lafayette did in 1778 which fighted to help the insurgent to build what USA are , and they did it since the beginning of the conflict . It was the beginning of the great friendship between France and USA , nobody should have short memory , i totally agree ...
Problem is that many people have short memory , a lot of french and a lot of american might think that it's a big crisis between France and US ; but there has been TONS of veto things , mini crisis between US and Europe in the last decades , there's nothing new , really .
We share the same morale , and never forget that the true enemy is islamism and fanatics of every kind , including bloody dictators like Saddam but i still think that he is less dangerous for the world and Iraqi people than islamists . Islamists don't only kill , torture mainly women who wants to live their life ; they are like a sect , they destroy spirit freedom , everything that goes into the direction of democracy .
And ... Bush and Blair opened very wide the door of Iraq to every kind of radical islamism coming from Iran and chiits , yes the chiits definitely can be thankfull :evil:
Hades, you're right. Unfortunately, not every American is astute in history, especially if the history predates our aweful civill war. It's was not our finest hour.
The impression over here is that France has not only disagreed with us on issues (because that's to be expected from allies from time to time and understandable - nothing wrong with disagreeing) but France has not supported the U.S. on many important issues over years and went out of their way to torpedo the Bush Administration's efforts. It's hard to ignore that with the current history of France attempting to thwart other U.S. efforts. Of course others have brought up the oil contracts and other associations with the Saddam regime (although you see the No blood for oil signs used aginst us - kind of ironic really). The other countries that were against the action have been accused of the same things. I'm not hysterical over that and I'd like to see more proof but it does make some sense.
The reason I bring that up is only this. There are many people in the world living under oppression and we, likely won't do anything about it unless there is another reason to be there. That's a sad fact of politics but true. I hate to think that countries cannot decide in a united way to save a people despite monetary contracts and under the table happenings. If half of what is being said is true, there is a lot of corruption in the U.N. and even the oil for food program was nothing more than an easy business for the U.N. to make some money. That is sad to me because, we collectively should be looking out for those in the world who cannot look after themselves.
As for Iran sending over "trouble-makers" to stir the pot and attempt to influence the makeup of the established government, I'll admit it's a nuisance at the least and a danger to lives at the extreme. Their attempts, however, will not have a major impact on how their government is set up.
I do understand why many people would not trust the United States. Our record on certain things have not been the best. We have let others water down our actions and convictions before. We didn't wish to be seen as brutal and left jobs half-done. I hope we correct those sins of the past and commit support to Iraq and Afghanistan. The people that live there deserve that at a minimum.
Anyway, I wish good will to all peoples of all countries and my core belief is that the stronger of us all should protect the weaker of us all. Anything else I express is based on that core belief.
The impression over here is that France has not only disagreed with us on issues (because that's to be expected from allies from time to time and understandable - nothing wrong with disagreeing) but France has not supported the U.S. on many important issues over years and went out of their way to torpedo the Bush Administration's efforts. It's hard to ignore that with the current history of France attempting to thwart other U.S. efforts. Of course others have brought up the oil contracts and other associations with the Saddam regime (although you see the No blood for oil signs used aginst us - kind of ironic really). The other countries that were against the action have been accused of the same things. I'm not hysterical over that and I'd like to see more proof but it does make some sense.
The reason I bring that up is only this. There are many people in the world living under oppression and we, likely won't do anything about it unless there is another reason to be there. That's a sad fact of politics but true. I hate to think that countries cannot decide in a united way to save a people despite monetary contracts and under the table happenings. If half of what is being said is true, there is a lot of corruption in the U.N. and even the oil for food program was nothing more than an easy business for the U.N. to make some money. That is sad to me because, we collectively should be looking out for those in the world who cannot look after themselves.
As for Iran sending over "trouble-makers" to stir the pot and attempt to influence the makeup of the established government, I'll admit it's a nuisance at the least and a danger to lives at the extreme. Their attempts, however, will not have a major impact on how their government is set up.
I do understand why many people would not trust the United States. Our record on certain things have not been the best. We have let others water down our actions and convictions before. We didn't wish to be seen as brutal and left jobs half-done. I hope we correct those sins of the past and commit support to Iraq and Afghanistan. The people that live there deserve that at a minimum.
Anyway, I wish good will to all peoples of all countries and my core belief is that the stronger of us all should protect the weaker of us all. Anything else I express is based on that core belief.
Why are you lamers discussing war and politics here? Take a look at futuremark's forums, under anouncements they have a sticky telling people not to discuss these topics. Yes I know this is warp2search forums but its not a religious orientated or poltic related or war associated forum. There are enough arguments without bringing topics like this up.
Why are you lamers discussing war and politics here? Take a look at futuremark's forums, under anouncements they have a sticky telling people not to discuss these topics. Yes I know this is warp2search forums but its not a religious orientated or poltic related or war associated forum. There are enough arguments without bringing topics like this up.Who gives a f... about futuremarks forums. If you dont like it... goto another forum topic. :roll:
Vegitto , i totally agree with your vision of what things should be . You know , if France has been on disagreeing with US in the past and present , for some decisions via UN , it's mainly on the manner to do but not on the wanted issue . It's just a matter of method , of course their are money and different things that makes the heads turn , nobody honest could totally deny it . The fact is that France has a strong past history with arabs countries , and is a strong and efficient medium between occident and middle-east , north africa etc ... So , has a good knowledge of the affairs and people over there . Over here we think that war wasn't the good method , to wipe Saddam and install a democracy in Irak , hoping it could help to resolve Israelian-Palestinian conflict by crushing the hamas at the same time .
Why ? For different reasons , but i think one of the most important is that americans couldn't count on Iraki people after military phase to go in direction of the democracy . There is a strong ethnic and religious identity in iraqi people that was bloodly repressed by saddam in his times , no surprise that iraqi army didn't resist ... Except in the south of Iraq where the chiits did a surprise in fighting to the death , a surprise ... not much . They have a fanatic faith and US know that faithfull soldiers are very efficient going up to the death , proof is when CIA helped creating the taliban soldiers , a strong army against the soviets .
I don't think lots of Iraqi know what democracy is , and want something else than islamism (manipulated by Iran or not) , nor do they have real trust in americans good intentions ... US have putted their hand on a very complex problem and they did it without being very convincing , and sadly being very sure to own the truth , all these diplomats at the UN could have done everything , this war was programmed anyway .
Of course , many of us have never lived in dictature and dream of democracy for everybody on earth , don't want to see governments keep fingers crossed but surely after the horrible september 11 , america's face has changed and act under strong passion (often an enemy of the reason) ; UN is something , able to do the best as the worse , via its members but it shouldn't loose its power , representative of democracy between countries .
I , too , wish the best to every country especially those who are in needs .
For the people that say it's not a place to speak about politics or war , i would say that what's happening is important enough to temporaly get a place in a topic in "off topic" , nobody forces you to take part in this discussion . Democracy rules !!! :)
Why ? For different reasons , but i think one of the most important is that americans couldn't count on Iraki people after military phase to go in direction of the democracy . There is a strong ethnic and religious identity in iraqi people that was bloodly repressed by saddam in his times , no surprise that iraqi army didn't resist ... Except in the south of Iraq where the chiits did a surprise in fighting to the death , a surprise ... not much . They have a fanatic faith and US know that faithfull soldiers are very efficient going up to the death , proof is when CIA helped creating the taliban soldiers , a strong army against the soviets .
I don't think lots of Iraqi know what democracy is , and want something else than islamism (manipulated by Iran or not) , nor do they have real trust in americans good intentions ... US have putted their hand on a very complex problem and they did it without being very convincing , and sadly being very sure to own the truth , all these diplomats at the UN could have done everything , this war was programmed anyway .
Of course , many of us have never lived in dictature and dream of democracy for everybody on earth , don't want to see governments keep fingers crossed but surely after the horrible september 11 , america's face has changed and act under strong passion (often an enemy of the reason) ; UN is something , able to do the best as the worse , via its members but it shouldn't loose its power , representative of democracy between countries .
I , too , wish the best to every country especially those who are in needs .
For the people that say it's not a place to speak about politics or war , i would say that what's happening is important enough to temporaly get a place in a topic in "off topic" , nobody forces you to take part in this discussion . Democracy rules !!! :)
